Casey Leaks Out Terror As Jose Baez Mentions Death and Cries Real Tears When She Hears of Father’s Sexual Molestation

 With bulging eyes and furrowed forehead Casey leaked out terror as Jose said the words You’re here on a death penalty case, where they want to take someone’s life. Casey became unglued as the reality of her situation kicked in. S he leaked out extreme fear as you can see int he photo above as well as anger/

She wanted to cry  but  Cheney Mason tried to calm her down and distract her  so she would  keep it together. Jose’s delivery to the jurors is very good. He talks to them and not at them. He connects with them.   His cadence and pacing are  excellent and he is easy to follow.  

He brings up for the first time that Caylee died in a swimming pool as an accident . Why didn’t he bring that up earlier?  Was it  because he was believing Casey about there being a  Zanny the Nanny and trying to pin Casey’s death on Zanny? Why didn’t he say there was a drowning early on?

As Jose talks about drowning in a family pool, Casey manages to  do one of her fake crys, complete with wiping away a non tear and examining it on the fingertips of one hand which is  her usuall  fake tear ritual.


Notice how the side of  Georges mouth is pulled up and his lips look asymmetrical. This is a micro expression of  contempt that leaked out. He is so upset by these allegations that he cannot look up.

Casey had fake tears as Jose spoke about her problems . But soon those tears become real for one of the very first times. She cried withe  both eyes at the same time and unlike the past.  there was liquid coming out of her eyes.

As he hears the words  of  a  13 year oldCasey having her fathers penis in her mouth and then going to school  George lifts his head and glares.  contempt.

If that is true , maybe it sheds some light on why George was so defensive  and why he never searched for Casey. It also makes you wonder if this is the possible   reason George told Casey in the jailhouse tapes  how he wasn’t a good father.

Whether you believe what Jose , said or not, he did make a strong  verbal and  vocal  presentation  in a very compelling manner.  


62 thoughts on “Casey Leaks Out Terror As Jose Baez Mentions Death and Cries Real Tears When She Hears of Father’s Sexual Molestation

  1. Thank you Dr. Glass, for taking time out your busy schedule to write your observations for the fans to read. I know that I personally check your blog site daily for new information.
    I found it very difficult to watch and listen to Mr. Baez making his opening statement. I personally thought he was all over the place,and he didnt have a beginning or an end. Unlike the prosecuter, she took the jury from A to Z and made it believable. I think a lot of it might be Mr. Baez’s inexperience in the court room. Howerver, this isn’t the case/trial for him to practice on. I hope, for his sake he can learn fast..Im worried if Casey is found guilty she will cry(her fake tears) ineffective council.
    Thank you again for all that you do, and I hope I can count on reading your observations about this case everyday.

    1. LuLu,
      I was like you, I felt Baez was all over the place and not connecting the dots for me. I pray daily that the jury is able to see through all the lies. I want to see Casey’s face for probably the first time in her life have to face someone finding her Guilty, Guilty of a wasted life and for taking the ability for poor Caylee to have a life to live.

  2. I do not think George molested Casey. I thought he looked totally believable when he testified. How would a father look when accused of such by his daughter? I think he was in shock, even after hearing they would do this, he couldn’t believe it. With Lee, I think there may have been some early, playing dr type activity, that perhaps went on too long. Casey doesn’t seem to me to be the type of person to accept behavior she doesn’t want. she is not a shrinking violet, who can’t take up for herself. Most people who endure this type of behavior in early life, get out of the house as soon as possible, even if they have to run away. she stayed, and kept her daughter in it. I also believe her extended family would have helped her if she needed it. I am not a George and Cindy fan, but after yesterday, I was proud of George for not falling on his sword for her. Now I wait to see if Cindy will push him on the sword, when its her turn to talk.

      1. Sherry,

        I too believe that if casey had been molested as she has claimed then she would have left the house the moment she turned of age, maybe sooner. I don’t believe that her family had this invisable hold over her about lying. Maybe in early days that was true. I don’t believe it, but I admit that it is plausable. But after she had her own child (Caylee) she would do everything humanly possible to protect her child from being anywhere around the men she claimed molested her. She is a pathalogical lair and she has created a fantasy world that only casey lives in. It is time for her to open her eyes and know this time the fantasy is over and she must pay for taking the life of her child in a cold calculating way. Thank you for being able to see through her lies as well.

    1. I also agree with you Rob! George may not be the most “take charge” man I’ve ever seen, but he was appeared genuine and sincere on the stand and I was thrilled to see the strenght of his denial.

  3. I think the first photo (a facial expression that Casey made 2 times at the beginning of Mr. Baez’s opening statements) is a perfect example of how a sociopath attempts to copy the emotions of people who have real emotions. Her face is more like the face of someone who is surprised…as though she had NO IDEA her case was a death penalty case. The cartoon bubble above that photo could easily read,
    “What?? I’m here on a charge that carries the death penalty??? WHEN did this happen??”
    I think her expression does not “fit” with what is being said at the time because she has been coached to appear frightened, worried and victimized. Casey spend much more time on day one of court appearing just plain teed off at the whole ordeal rather than frightened in my opinion. Dr. Glass, I always love your articles and your expertise and insight. But I just disagree that Casey looks frightened and to be finally facing reality in that first photo up above. I don’t think Casey will face reality until she hears the prison door close upon her and all the attention paid to her fade away. I don’t think Casey has “reached the end of this particular hallway” yet.

    1. Right Forrest, sociopaths mirror others emotions because they fail to possess their own, except for their own pain. And that is what she does, she cries when it pertains to her pain. I would hope that Baez would not make up this elaborate lie himself, but it would make perfect since for casey to have over the years she was (suffering) in her mind, to have come up with a fantasy about what happened to caylee. But only one thing they forgot, there are tons of people who can expose casey. I just hope that the right information can get to the jury so that she is caught in this horrible lie she has put on her parents. Shame on you casey, these people loved and cared for you, turned their eyes to your thefts all in the name of love for you. Shame on you Casey. Thank you Forrest, good post.

  4. After three years and no credible theory of the case he stands up and tells his client’s story and paints this picture:

    1. She is looking at her daughter
    2. She is being screamed at
    3. She is being told her daughter is dead
    4. She is being blamed for not seeing something she didn’t know was happening.

    Ms Anthony practiced a little “duping delight” on her attorney. She will have a long time to reflect on the fine art of lying. For someone with years of practice she sure doesn’t sound like a good one.

    Mr Baez should hang his head in shame for what he did yesterday.

    1. I don’t think it was Casey’s story he was telling, he made this up on his own, by taking her story and embelishing it with his own. the penis in the mouth was for shock effect, and I have to admit, Casey looked shocked when he said it. After all, if she gets off, she has to have somewhere to go, and someone to pay her bills. she didn’t go through all this to get out and go find a job. Someone has to buy her that Winnebago and pay for the gas.

      1. Ms Anthony signed off on Mr Baez’ opening statement. She provided the information relative to what her father did to her when she was both 8 and 13 years old. Mr Baez did not augment the story but simply told it in a way that was clearly unbelievable.

        Lies are hard to tell especially since there is always two sides to every story and in this case there is abundant evidence which is in complete contradiction relative to sexual abuse and the death of Caylee.

        Mr Baez included the horrific description of what happened to Casey in ways which were dramatic, untruthful and highly unlikley if we take the following into account:

        Ms Anthony is a liar and by grade 9 had a history of oppositional and disruptive behavior within the family. All her extended family had witnessed her inappropriate behavior and her unrelenting use of profanity when confronted.

        Do you really think Casey Anthony stood there at the front door weighted down with a heavy backpack and allow anything to be inserted into her mouth knowing that the school bus was coming any minute?

    2. I know, what about all the resources, like Texas Equusearch etc.. that Casey and Baez wasted holding their “cards” close to their vest?

      Both of them are destructive, arrogant lying sociopaths.

    3. Mr Baez should hang his head in shame for what he did yesterday.

      ABSOLUTELY!! I agree 120% As a matter of fact, couldn’t it be considered concealing evidence that he waited until now to tell that she knew all along?? or does he just get a free pass to spew sh!t because he is defending her?

  5. Just my observation and opinion, but when George was on the stand and denied both the drowning and the molestation, the expression I saw on Casey’s face was one of being stunned, and disbelief that he wouldn’t go along with it. I think she may as well have blurted out “C’mon, Dad, just do this for me.” JMO.

    1. they have enable her .. her whole life.. i’m sure it was a shock… i thought he was going to get up there and take one for the team..

      i think he told the truth…

  6. Sorry, Dr. Glass I have to disagree… Baez wasn’t compelling, he was confused. Throwing mud at Kronk AND George? and the duct tape on an accidental drowning? Driving around in a car for a month with her dead kid?

    George, as former LE, would know that an accidental drowning of a toddler would not be seen as even manslaughter by the state – accidents like this really do happen – just not in this case.

    The experts weren’t impressed by Baez:

    BILL SHEAFFER, LEGAL ANALYST, WFTV: …It was an audacious opening. I don`t care how much lipstick a defense lawyer tries to put on this pig, it`s still a pig. And what has happened now is Jose Baez is behind the credibility scorecard. Once you lose that credibility as a defense attorney, you can`t make it up. This is not like a basketball game, where you can get behind in the credibility count and throw a 3-pointer at the end of the game and win. It`s over.

      1. Boots on the ground said they saw a few jurors look at Baez with consternation for what he said about George and later when George was being pressed by Baez in the cross.

        I don’t think Baez impressed them. At one time Baez thought the jurors needed a break-could it be their facial expressions made him uncomfortable? They let HHJP know they didn’t need a break so something happened there.

  7. rob 12:49 pm: I agree with you Casey is “no shrinking violet” and would not have tolerated the behavior Baez is stating of the sexual abuse.
    Kitt 1:02 pm: Also agree with you that Casey was in total shock when George did not agree with Baez and denied the abuse. It is about time George and Cindy stand up to Casey’s manipulation and temper tantrums. I can’t help but feel that Casey made those allegations for attention and “oh feel sorry for me”. She has betrayed her whole family and it is the worst kind of betray. She looks so “evil” and that she is.
    Baez lost all credibility in his opening statements by trying to hang this on George and Roy Kronk. All he did was confuse the jurors, but perhaps that is the name of his game. I know the Judge is tired of the games being played. It looks like he is going to spend most of his time at this trial objecting and at the side bar.

    The defense has stooped as low as they can go just to save their clients butt.

      1. @ Grandma and Rob – ME TOO!!!!! So glad to hear that the majority of the people see thru his crap!

    1. hey gm… i think if they would have left the whole roy kronk part off of the “story ” it would have been more believable…

      i think at first the story was high drama and shocking… but the ‘story” is a day late and a dollar short…. why sit in jail for 3 years over an accident…

      even before kc was charged with murder.. she sold her daughters pics for 200 thousand… she had the money to never go back to that house… perfect time to tell the truth… and give her daughter a burial… didnt happen…

      also the whole cindy would never forgive her didn’t hold water either… cindy left the ladder down… she is just as guilty as kc if that is what really happened…

      after the shock wore off… i think the defense came off as looking desperate.. jmo…

      kc sitting there looking angry and defiant.. is not helping her case either

      1. The detectives asked her at least once, but proballly more than once, if an accident just happened. They promised to go help her fight any changes if that was the case to the best of their abilities ect and Casey stood by her nanny story.

  8. vic 2:52 pm: I agree. They should have left Roy Kronk out of their opening statements. They have blamed Jessie Grund, Amy, Morales, Kronk and now the grandfather. They are desperate and they are not credible. George and Cindy are no fans of mine, but it looks like they stooped as low as they could go and Casey expected her father to go along with the sexual abuse because they have always enabled her and dug her out of her troubles.

    I don’t think for one minute that Caylee died in the pool. Her death was a death out of rage Casey had toward her mother. She was going to show her. When a small child drowns, you do not put duct tape on their tiny face to construct their breathing. If her death happened the way the defense said it did….George would have called 911 immediately. He has shown a lot of heartache over the loss of little Caylee and that is something we never have seen from Casey. She is cold, callous and evil. I just hope the jurors see through this defense.

    Why should we believe Casey about her father when she has lied about everything? If it is indeed true and they can prove it then there will be a mistrial and Casey has already bragged about getting a “mistrial” to her inmate friend.

    1. Well it’s possilbe that Casey did try to drown her but I would imagain that Caylee might have been a bit too noisy and in the afternoon it could cause attendtion. Therefore, she’d have to go to plan B. The cell phone pings show that she was around her house till like 4:30 pm, 1½ hours after Geo left the house.
      I can see her leaving the ladder up as she rushed to dry off Caylee and get the Duct tape. Also, Adiposear (not sure how to spell that) forms when water is involved in a death and it was in the trunk.

  9. Dr. Glass..thought you left us..Did u note how Casey’s head said “NO” when Baez said he put his penis in her mouth..he did not do that. Abused children can tell you, which daddy touched. If he touched, why would Casey leave her precious child with him day after day? I think it is a set-up anyway.

    I can tell you that if Cheney Mason was my father I would not leave him alone with my daughters or granddaughters. I watched yesterday rubbing Casey’s back. It is just much to sexual for me. His mouth opens and he becomes someone else..I feel sick to my stomach and my skin feels scared. Casey must feel creepy sitting next to him.

    I have always said, you get what you pay for..Baez had a 9th grade education..Mason also did not finish HS…so they ended up in college..Baez verbal use of words comes across loud and clear. IMO. Start at A read the dictionary to Z

  10. Based on the documented behavior of this narsacissistic deviant on trial for murder I am inclined to believe it is more likely she molested male family members.

  11. I remember at the beginning, local police tried to get Casey to tell them if there had been a accident, and she didn’t know what to do. I also remember her saying they won’t trick me into confessing. I thought then, if it was me, I would say yes, it was an accident and probably get off with probation or less time than she has already served. BUT, she would have had to produce the body, which hadn’t decomposed yet. Toxicology tests would have been done. The true story would have come out. It doesn’t make sense to say accident now. What 2 adults would think you could get in trouble, in FL, for an accidental drowning. Sorry but it happens every day. If you read the news, you know that. I pray for the jury to see thru this and look at all the facts, and sentence her accordingly.

  12. Rob-Casey’s psychopathy is central to the prosecutions case. I wondered months ago if it would be used as their driving force behind her behavior and lack of shame, remorse or guilt. They presented witnesses this morning and the questions were in rapid fire Q&A requiring a simple yes-no response which went to her state of mind (a psychopathic state of mind). It will not be lost on jurors even if they do not know how to identify the personality disorder they will see certain traits (defects) and they will discuss them during deliberations. Mr George did a fine job in establishing her detachment from her child and I have the utmost trust in the jurors who were sworn. Even if there is a shit disturber in the room the majority will rule (during the guilt phase).

  13. I don’t believe George ever molested Casey. I don’t believe Caylee drowned in the pool. I think Casey murdered her to spite Cindy.

    Casey is an evil, soulless monster and I’ve changed my mind and now I hope she does get the death penalty.

    The way this trial is going is making me physically ill. I really hate Jose Baez. He is a conceited, lying fool and I hope he gets disbarred.

    1. Jurors will look down on him and when they convict Casey they will go before the media and do a fine job describing just how awful he was as an attorney. He’s like LKBadan-when ya don’t have much to say you simply rely on your ability to badger people and when that doesn’t work you simply raise your voice. No one takes kindly to that type of person. It wasn’t a very effective pretrial strategy but he doesn’t quite get what it means to be “in the spotlight” or “under the watchful eye of the camera.” They will both have the necessary time to reflect on their behavior once this trial comes to an end in June.

  14. Yes Baez delivered his pile of dung very well. I was riveted for sure. I actually laughed out loud with each ridiculous claim. First of all, I do not believe George touched her. Her brother? Sure, maybe some touchy feely. Some kids/siblings experiment. I in no way believe this story about the drowning. George would have called the police and/or ambulance. I do not for second believe this man would cover this up. This Kronk thing is to throw out the evidence found with the body. Baez has way too many holes in this tactic. Each witness is asked if they were present or have knowledge of the death. He cannot really think the jury will just forget her behavior after the this so called drowning? Far too many holes. Baez cannot plug up all those holes. I really, for once, feel very sorry for George and even Cindy. They have loyally stuck by this girl, receiving a lot of hate in return. This lying troubled girl is trying to take them down right along with her as payment for this loyalty. I am so disgusted by this defense tactic. So very disgusted.

  15. Love this blog, thanks for keeping us up to date on Krazy Casey’s body language during this intense trial. I was wondering if you had noticed George Anthony’s response to the Prosecution’s question about knowing if Caylee way dead the day she supposely drowned and if he helped hide the body? He answers with No, but his head nodded Yes. I was wondering if that is admitting guilt to those two questions. Thanks in advance for your sharing your thoughts on that.

  16. Well I have to say Jose Baez has officially made a complete ass out of himself. Seriously asking Tony if Casey bought weapons at J.C. Pennys & Best Buy & duct tape. LMAO

  17. I think they are drugging Casey..With a timed released drug, at 4:30 it seemed she started to wake 5:00 she was alive..I think it is Reiz that brings in the goods. Baez is digging his own hole..Good Luck!

  18. Question for anybody: I noticed that there is something wrong with Casey’s eyebrows last week. Have they always been like this and I just had never noticed before? They seem to only extend from the inner aspect of her eye to halfway – they do not extend out to the outer aspect of her eye. It looks very weird.

    1. I noticed this too…I don’t know if she’s allowed to have tweezers but it looks like she went overboard with a pair!!

  19. I agree with grandma; she killed Caylee because at that very moment in time, she hated her mother MORE than she loved Caylee. I am curious to see if the argument they had over Cindy threatening to take Caylee away from Casey and adopting Caylee herself will ever be admitted. That, supposedly, was the reason that Casey’s rage went into overdrive.

  20. Dr Glass, I really hope you will review Georges testimony and his body language when being questioned by both Jeff Ashton and Jose. thanks!

  21. NancyB-
    When Ms Anthony departed the Penellas Palace Penthouse Apartment, which she occupied for the last two weeks, she inadvertantly left behind her eyebrow pencil and other beauty aids. When the conceirge was dispatched to search the room he saw what appeared to be a message on the window written in a kind of backwards sort of way, “ssob eht ma i daD.’

    1. no but i do think she feels she’s so hot that even her own family can’t resist her..
      its part of her sociopathy

  22. What bothers me about the sexual abuse with such filth coming from biazzz mouth. He never once pressed George for more detail of the alleged abuse he was spewing about. He ask him once did you sexually abuse your daughter, George emphatically said NO. Biazz did not further questioning on dates these so called abuse incidents happened, where was socio when these things were allegedly going on? Where was her mother? You are telling me for all these years horrible sexual abuse was happening right in front of Cindy? Why then biazzz only ask the one question regarding the sexual abuse and then leave it all on the floor with nothing else about it?

    1. i think kc picked ga as scape goat because of how looked down on he was in the family home… i don’t think cindy would ever let george parent kc. because ca had to be in control…. and cindy enabled kc to the point shes at today… jmo

      we don’t hear family going on tv saying ga did this to them too… or ga dating women with childern when cindy and him were broken up..etc..

      i do think there was abuse in the home.. i’m not buying yet that its sexual…

  23. I was a sexually abused child. I would lie all the time when I was younger too. However, Casey lied about where she worked, where she got money from, stupid little things. These are a totally different type of lies. There came a time in my life , when I knew the difference between right and wrong and I took myself to get help. After eight years of therapy, I finally overcame my past and was able to become the person I was meant to be. I would NEVER have hurt my children . I don’t buy the abuse excuse for one single minute and I think what Casey and her lawyer, Jose’ Baez have done is a gross injustice to abuse survivors everywhere. A child drowning in the pool is an accident that happens a lot . That would have been considered an accidental drowning and that is not a criminal offense. George was a cop and knew that. I don’t buy Casey’s story. Seems strange to me that anyone would need to duct tape the child’s mouth and nose if she were already dead from drowning in the pool ! Think about it !

  24. Parts of the opening statement by Baez seemed effective…but it has all been downhill from there.

    I know something about incest, having been raised by someone who experienced it. The Anthonys are very similar to my family. My Mother was incapable of telling the truth..(most victims of incest become horrendous liars).

    In the beginning I thought George might have “matched” my grandfather in the role of incestuous patriarch. WELL. After the testimony I changed my mind 100%. George was an excellent witness and I bet the jury believed him like I did.
    Now…none of this is to say that I have given up my theory that something horrible has been happening to KC to make her so “out there”. I completely agree with Jose’s opening statement in that regard–there is a reason why KC has become what she has become. At this stage I am taking a hard look at brother Lee, thinking that it is very likely that HE is the partner in incest. Now, before everyone yammers on about how impossible that is, please consider that sibling-sibling incest is much more common than you can imagine. Here is a fine wikipedia article that includes statistics:

    To me it seems logical an likely that KC is so ashamed of this that she has not even been able to confide it to Baez or anyone else. Just revisit the “C.M.A.” speech delivered by Lee at Caylee’s memorial if you don’t think it is a strong possibility! It is easy enough to understand that KC never wants it known that she engaged in something so shameful with her own brother. I thought it was very suspicious when Jose said in his opening statement that Lee followed in George’s footsteps, except that “it didn’t go as far”. Those are very strange words to use, words that had to come direct from KC. Don’t they sound like the words of a very childlike person?

    KC and Lee made fun of George in recent years..KC doesn’t mind giving George up and she is able to hold onto a smattering of “pride” by not divulging the truth about sex with Lee.

    Thanks for blogging about the case, Dr. Glass. I always enjoy your columns.

  25. Dr. Glass, I do hope with that opening statement Baez delivered, he just signed Inmate’s death warrant…The audacity to blame the one constant who selflessly rode around looking for Caylee..Hurt him more by saying he was molesting the inmate. Why then, if she truly was molested would she leave Caylee to be watched by this alleged abuser. Hogwash. Why was George the one this Inmate choose to have that meeting with. She is a pathological liar…as George tells Jeff Ashton he did not molest his daughter, her head was nodding no…so which is it?

    Notice, she still hadn’t taken resposibility for any actions leading to Caylee’s death, the inmate left it right at her father’s lap…with a gapping hole in his ‘tale’ of desperation…She is dispicable and a reprehensible beast, I now pray she gets sentenced to death and not get LWOP. If Baez thought she was hated before, wait, just wait till this is over. She will NOT be released anytime soon, for she intentionally did harm to her own child…God doesn’t like ugly, Karma will kick in, if all else fails. I have faith those jurors will see this inmate as diabolical, and sentence her appropriately…JMHO

    Rest peacefully, Caylee…we know JoJo isn’t what Baez stated…God rest your soul…

    Justice for Caylee

  26. Linda Rose-Your post was excellent. The only real abuser in this family was Casey Anthony. Mr Baez knows that Casey is bad news and as each witness gets on the stand he knows where the prosecution is going. He isn’t touting Ms Anthony’s guilt or innocence but making every effort to convince jurors that his client is not a cold and calculating murderer. He will rue the day he could not get her to take a plea.

    And what will Ms Anthony be doing…. She’ll be crying REAL TEARS coming out of BOTH eyes. Copious TEARS. No lack of tears. All day to cry her heart out and all night to wonder what her life could have been had she not “trusted her judgements”. Let’s face it, “Everyone lies”. Too bad she trusted her lawyer with the ones that made it all possible to cry REAL TEARS!!!!!!!!!

  27. I had no idea this website existed, but I am so happy to find it.

    I almost always have at least a little doubt in cases like this, but not this time. GUILTY!
    I stumbled across this looking for info on Jose Baez, I thought he was flaky from the start and also noticed something going on between he and Casey. I think she’s the kind of girl who can fool most men and a lot of women, but not me.
    I also noticed that she drastically change her attire after the first day, going from a little bit flirty to 1900 school marm, nice try. Too little, too late.

  28. Yep, I agree with ALL the Baez/Casey haters. This was a new LOW that Baez stooped down to, and with that “Joker Smirk” evil as it may be, just like Casey A. will get the “karma” they deserve. Too bad little Caylee had to get the short end of the stick and now JoJo. God, plz do Justice for this Family and deliver them from” Evil” (Baez/Casey). Give C&G your guidance and strength to endure the good for their true family. Take Casey away from that family circle and let them finally morn little Caylee. We did dislike G&C before we knew the lengths Baez/Casey would go to get victory in the public eye. Pretending again, like Caseys’ whole like she created. Give Lee also a strong tower to come out of this honest, for his familys’ sake too. You do God what you see fit to Baez/Casey to give little Caylee the Justice she deserves and dont let them get away with their LIES.. Amen

  29. After Casey is convicted, she will get an easy appeal by saying she had inadequate legal representation. Then, she will sell out Baez and say that he told her to claim abuse. My opinion.

  30. In the jail video he talks about not being a good father but then goes on to mention ” it was a tough love” …. He meant he was not a good father in that he tried to be strict with her because he loved her …..and that was only up until cindy put a stop to it and told George to stay out of anything to do with Casey

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